Lawyers vs. NonLawyers

by Dave Uhlig
President, People Power, Inc. d/b/a Attorney Alternatives
Licensed Mortgage Broker
 

When I tell my clients that I can't give them legal advice and must consult with an attorney, many ask me "Dave, why don't you become a lawyer?"

When I was a kid, I really wanted to be a lawyer. I thought it would be cool to get paid to argue with other people. However, after working with and for lawyers for over a decade, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. I truly believe our legal system is flawed. As in politics, I believe our current lawyering system forces good people with honorable motives to change, and sometimes not for the better.

Why? As many things, it all comes down to money. It is very expensive to be a lawyer. Besides the $100,000+ in law school fees, lawyers are charged huge amounts of money for malpractice insurance. Lawyers pay fees and dues to the Florida Bar. Lawyers must pay for continuing education. Lawyers are charged inflated prices by software companies for their specialized software programs. It just goes on and on. So, I can sympathize with lawyers and understand that they expect to be paid a fairly hefty hourly fee, in relation to the average worker's wage.

However, we can say many of the same things about public school teachers. Many of my clients who teach in the public school system have incurred student loan balances on par with many attorneys. Public school teachers often lay out their own money for school supplies. Public school teachers often work many uncompensated hours. However, according to salary.com, the average attorney makes more than twice as much as the average high school teacher.

In my opinion, the one thing that annoys the public about lawyers is the all-too-common practice of charging an inflated fee for a procedure that simply does not justify such a price when you examine the time expended by the attorney. Here's an example (a true story):

My fiancée's parents wanted to set up a Revocable Living Trust so they called two lawyers from the AARP's lawyer referral service. One quote was $2,400.00 and the second was $3,300.00. I have prepared living trust packages for lawyers many times and I can assure you that these quotes truly shocked me. I felt they amounted to "highway robbery".

All of the documents contained in a typical trust package, including the trust agreement, the pour-over will, the durable power of attorney, living will/health care surrogate and deed are stored on the attorney's computer (or his/her paralegal's computer). With information provided to me by a lawyer, I can replace the names and insert the required information to customize these forms in an average of 15 to 60 minutes. So, for those lawyers quoting these huge prices, how would this break down hourly? I'll be generous here:

Keep in mind that technically, the lawyer shouldn't be billing $250.00 an hour for his paralegal services. So how in the world can a lawyer justify $2,400-$3,300 for this work? You simply can't. For the lower of these two quotes, that lawyer would be charging $685.71 an hour. For the higher, a whopping $942.86 an hour! For that kind of hourly rate, shouldn't you be curing cancer or something?

Thankfully, I did find a lawyer that advertised the same package for under $500.00, which I felt was very fair. Guess what? As a result of his refusal to price-gouge, he has made literally thousands of dollars more in the long run. Why? Because this lawyer, it turns out, is also a CPA, specializes in real estate law, estate planning and probate and he owns a title company. He also turned out to be a really nice guy and very knowledgeable.

When I receive calls from people inquiring about trusts, probate and real estate matters (averaging 10 calls a week) I give his phone number and relay my very positive experience with him. Additionally, as a mortgage broker, I have switched to his company for my title work. My fiancée, who is a Realtor®, now uses his title services exclusively. It just proves my theory: you can be a "nice guy", charge a fair and reasonable fee, and still drive a nice car.

Frankly, I don't think anybody deserves $250.00 an hour unless they are holding a scalpel near a body part that I like, but I can't really blame lawyers for charging high fees WHEN THEY ARE ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK. However, if I'm paying someone over twenty times what the average Floridian earns on an hourly basis, then I at least expect good customer service. We expect to be treated well when we go to the supermarket, a restaurant or the shoe repair shop. Shouldn't we expect it from our lawyer?

It is simply bad customer service to:

1. Not return calls promptly to clients.
2. Not complete work in a reasonable and timely manner.
3. Not treat your customer with respect.
4. Not give 110% to each and every client.
 

The fact that lawyer's fees are out of reach of most people is a given. But the lawyer complaints I hear on a daily basis have more to do with basic customer service issues:

"I called my lawyer 6 times and I never get a call back"

"My lawyer was really nice until I paid her retainer. Now it seems like she doesn't care"

"I paid my lawyer a $1,500.00 fee and three months later, he hasn't done anything on my case or filed a single piece of paper. When I said I wanted my money back, he said I signed a nonrefundable retainer agreement"

"I paid $2,300 to a bankruptcy lawyer and he made a lot of errors on my papers. My trustee yelled at me and now I have to go back again"

"I went to a bankruptcy lawyer for a consultation and he made me feel like a total loser for having to file bankruptcy. He practically jumped over the desk at me"

Yes, these are real quotes from my clients. And it is unfortunate that it is so prevalent. Think I'm exaggerating? Ask your family, friends and co-workers if they know one lawyer that treated them really well and went "above and beyond" on their case.

Sad, but true. What's my solution? You can read my answer later in this article or go here to jump to it.

Here are some other answers to common questions:
Click on any question to jump to the answer, or just scroll down

What is the Florida Bar?
What is a paralegal?
What is a nonlawyer?
Can a paralegal advise me of my rights or represent me in court?
You keep talking about "legal advice". Just what is legal advice anyway?
How much do you charge?
Can you refer me to an attorney?
It sounds like you don't like the Florida Bar or attorneys?

What is the Florida Bar?

According to their web site, "The Florida Bar is the organization of all lawyers who are licensed by the Supreme Court of Florida to practice law in the state. Any lawyer desiring to practice law in Florida must be a member of The Florida Bar."

"Article V, Section 15 of the Constitution of the State of Florida gives the Supreme Court of Florida exclusive and ultimate authority to regulate the admission of persons to the practice of law and the discipline of those persons who are admitted to practice. The Court performs those official functions through two separate arms: the Florida Board of Bar Examiners , which screens, tests and certifies candidates for admission to the practice; and The Florida Bar, the investigative and prosecutorial authority in the lawyer regulatory process. Neither of these two agencies, nor any of their functions, is supported by state tax dollars."

Sounds harmless enough, doesn't it? However, there's more to the story.

First of all, most elected officials in Florida are or were lawyers, therefore they are members of the Florida Bar.
Almost every Florida Judge is or was a lawyer and therefore they are members of the Florida Bar.
Many top-level officials in the Executive Branch of Florida government are or were lawyers, therefore they are members of the Florida Bar.

Getting the picture here? Members of the Florida Bar are in control of every branch of government. Members of the Florida Bar make the laws that affect you and your family. Members of the Florida Bar interpret these laws that affect you and your family. Members of the Florida Bar run the agencies that affect you and your family.

I'm not suggesting some "DaVinci Code" type of conspiracy here, but it is obvious that the Florida Bar and its members are pretty powerful. And let's face it; they have a monopoly. As is the nature with all monopolies, they wish to maintain that monopoly, often crushing any threats to their exclusivity.

back to questions

What is a paralegal?

Once again, according to the Florida Bar:

"so many people were being misled about the titles “paralegal” and “legal assistant” that the Supreme Court of Florida passed a rule saying that it is not proper for a nonlawyer to use those titles if they are providing services directly to the public. Paralegals working in a law office often do have training and are often certified. They also have a code of ethics to follow and work under the lawyer’s supervision, not on their own. Nonlawyers who do not work for a lawyer may not have any training and should not be using the title paralegal."

In the midst of Florida's property insurance crisis, property tax crisis, health care crisis and other real issues that affect families, we Floridians can rest at night with peace of mind that the wide-spread public panic and confusion over the definition of "paralegal" has now been cleared up. Whew!

The Bar's explanation failed to mention that this issue was brought before the Supreme Court by the Bar itself. Among your friends, co-workers, family and acquaintances, do you know a single person who was confused by the definition of "paralegal" and wrote to their elected officials? Since 1993, I cannot recall a single customer who thought we had an attorney on staff.

The plain truth is that the public is and always has been well aware that nonlawyers do not work under the supervision of an attorney. That is why our fees are affordable. Frankly, the public doesn't care what nonlawyers are called. The unfortunate reality is that the majority of the public simply cannot afford an attorney.

I strongly support the statewide licensing and oversight of independent nonlawyer legal form typing services. I would welcome minimum educational requirements, licensing, continuing education and oversight by an independent organization or government agency such as the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. I believe this would protect the public far more than worrying about the definition of the word Paralegal.

Unfortunately, on several occasions, the majority of attorneys in Florida voted AGAINST such regulations even though their own task force recommended such actions to protect the public interest. Please contact the Florida Bar to learn why having better-trained nonlawyers would be harmful to consumers. 

back to questions

What is a nonlawyer?

Now that we cannot call ourselves "paralegals" anymore, The Florida Bar hasn't given us an acceptable alternative. Rather, they use the negative-sounding "nonlawyer" to describe somebody who is not a lawyer and types legal forms.

Interestingly enough, a few years ago, the Florida Bar's own web site briefly referred to nonlawyers as "legal technicians". Shortly thereafter, that term mysteriously disappeared with no explanation. I suspect the reason is that the term "legal technician" is too positive and professional-sounding for the Bar's obvious campaign to discredit and totally eliminate nonlawyer form typing companies.

Guess what? Florida has 15,982,378 residents. 79,363 are lawyers.

15,982,378 (Floridians) - 79,363 (lawyers) = 15,903,015 nonlawyers

Chances are, you are also a nonlawyer. Congratulations! Following this logic, there are many other "non" groups out there:

There are 15,956,458 "nonbartenders" in Florida.
There are 15,977,948 "nonservicestationattendants" in Florida.
There are 15,967,328 "nondentalassistants" in Florida.

And get this; out of 15,982,378 Floridians, there are a whopping 15,982,377 "nongovernors" in the State of Florida!

I can envision a whole new line of "non-entity" clothing:

back to questions
 

Can a paralegal advise me of my rights or represent me in court?

Absolutely not! Paralegals work in law firms under the supervision of an attorney. If you have retained an attorney and his or her paralegal has given you legal advice, you may report them to the Florida Bar Association here.

Nonlawyers, such as Attorney Alternatives are also prohibited from giving you information that the Florida Bar Association considers legal advice. We may only fill in the blanks on forms with the information supplied to us by our clients. Frankly, there is nothing we can do that you can not do yourself! We are simply a convenience for those who do not wish to type or hand write forms. 

back to questions

You keep talking about "legal advice". Just what is legal advice anyway?

Once again, according to the Florida Bar, "In determining whether the giving advice and counsel and the performance of services in legal matters constitute the practice of law, it is safe to follow the rule that if giving such advice and performance of services affect important rights of a person under the law, and if the reasonable protection of the rights and property of those advised and served requires that the persons giving such advice possess legal skill and knowledge of the law greater than that possessed by the average citizen, then the giving of such advice and performance of services by one for another constitutes the practice of law."

Whew! That's a mouth-full indeed. Leave it lawyers to create a definition that requires the hiring of a lawyer to interpret it.

Advice, according to Wesbter's Dictionary is defined as;

ad·vice
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French avis opinion, probably from the phrase ce m'est a vis that appears to me, part translation of Latin mihi visum est it seemed so to me, I decided
Date: 14th century
1 : recommendation regarding a decision or course of conduct : COUNSEL <he shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties -- U.S. Constitution>
2 : information or notice given -- usually used in plural
3 : an official notice concerning a business transaction

Most of us think of "advice" as definition #1 above. When you ask a friend for "advice", you usually expect some type of recommendation. If you just wanted facts, you would be asking for "information". Here lies the problem with the Court's extremely all-encompassing definition of "legal advice" that the Florida Bar is charged with enforcing. 

If a customer of ours asks us "what is the exemption for an automobile in a Chapter 7 Bankruptcy in Florida?", we are unable to answer them. Even though they have requested "information" which does not require any subjective, opinion-based recommendation or "advice" on our part, the Florida Bar could fine us for giving you the same answer you could find on 521,000 web pages listed in Google in approximately 0.17 seconds.

Now, if that same customer asks us "is Bankruptcy the best option for me?", that is a question which requires a subjective, opinion-based recommendation or "advice" on our part.

Most of the public understands the difference. The Courts understand it too. But, until more of the public puts pressure on the lawmakers to change the law, we must continue to refer all our customers with legal questions to attorneys for a consultation before we can type their forms.

Unfortunately, most of my clients report that it is almost impossible to get legal advice from an attorney. If you call one for a "free" consultation, most will not "give up the goods" and answer any substantial questions of law until you hire and pay them (which is understandable). If you call ten lawyers out of the phone book and offered to pay $125.00 for a one-half hour consultation, you would likely get a chilly response from 9 of them. Although that attorney's standard fee may be $250.00 an hour, why would they balk at getting paid their normal rate for 30 minutes of their time? Perhaps most just aren't satisfied with making a measly $125.00.

How many hours do you have to work to make $125.00? 12 hours? 6 hours? If someone offered to pay you $125.00 to answer some questions for 30 minutes, would you do it?

back to questions

How much do you charge?

All of our fees are flat fees, not hourly. We do not charge to talk to you on the phone. We do not charge you if you send us a fax. We do not charge you for every staple and paper clip that we use. As we type so many forms, it would take up too much room here to list them all. Please feel free to call us, or go to our Information Form and we will be glad to provide you with a price on the specific forms you require assistance with.

back to questions

Can you refer me to an attorney?

Unfortunately, we can not. You may find an attorney in the Yellow Pages or by calling the Florida Bar's Lawyer Referral Service at 1-800-342-8011. Florida Bar Online also can help you find an attorney.

back to questions

It sounds like you don't like the Florida Bar or attorneys?

It is not my goal to simply bash the Florida Bar or attorneys. However I (and most of the public) feel that changes need to be made that will address the public's need for affordable legal alternatives at a time when most of the public can not afford an attorney. In fact, the Florida Bar itself established several commissions to study nonlawyers and the public's lack of access to the legal system. Their very findings admitted that much of the public can not afford an attorney and that nonlawyers such as Attorney Alternatives provide a valuable service. These commissions made several good suggestions including the licensing and regulation of nonlawyers in order to provide value and quality to the public. When the Florida Bar as a whole voted on these suggestions, they were overwhelmingly defeated. Why? In my opinion, it is because they fear the further legitimization of nonlawyers will cut into their bottom line. I'll leave it up to you to decide if they were thinking of the public interest at that time.

In my humble opinion, there is a business model that would truly address two important truths:

1. Most people can not afford an attorney
2. There is a desperate need for quality legal services

The solution is legal "clinics" in which one, or several lawyers would be available in a supervisory role. A client would have a brief meeting in which they could have all their legal questions answered, receive advice and then a nonlawyer in the same office would be responsible for typing the forms at an affordable flat fee. During the course of the case, if the client required more advice, they could meet with the attorney for a small fee.

Sounds like a great solution, doesn't it? No $1,500.00 retainers and "nickel and diming" at $250.00 an hour. The client gets the advice they need coupled with the low-cost flat-fee rate of a nonlawyer. This concept would truly revolutionize the legal profession and would provide access to the legal system for those least able to afford it.

Guess who is against this idea? Yep, you guessed right. The Florida Bar. In fact, a licensed lawyer and member of the Florida Bar is prohibited from owning any part of a nonlawyer typing service and may not be employed by a nonlawyer service. Why do you think that is?

We're all adults here, so let's be frank. The Florida Bar is against this business model because it could mean the end of the traditional lawyering system. It would break the legal monopoly that has existed for many years. How? Let's look at a real-world example:

Let's say Mike and Mary want to get a divorce. They have no minor children, only a few assets and they are in total agreement on the terms of their divorce. They call a few lawyers out of the phone book and are shocked to find out that their simple divorce will cost them between $1,800 and $2,500 plus court costs (yes, these are real-world figures).

Mike hears about ABC Legal Clinic and he is quoted a price of $500.00 plus court costs. The fee includes one hour of legal consultation with a licensed attorney. Mike and Mary spend 30 minutes reviewing their case with the attorney. After they are done, they fill out some papers for the nonlawyer in the office who types all the standardized, court-approved forms. Before Mike and Mary come back, the lawyer spends 30 minutes checking that the forms have been typed correctly. Mike and Mary come back a few days later, review and sign their papers and ABC Legal Clinic files their papers at court. Seven weeks later, Mike appears in court for a few minutes to have the divorce finalized.

Could you possibly imagine a more "win-win" situation?

Mike and Mary saved thousands of dollars, received advice from a licensed lawyer and had their papers typed up by a professional legal form typist who is also licensed and regulated.

The lawyer receives $250.00 for one hour of his/her time

The nonlawyer who owns the company receives $250.00 for typing all the forms, notarizing, copying and filing at court.

Obviously, certain areas of law are more complex and would require the traditional law office setup.

The bottom line is that there are honest, talented attorneys who truly care about their clients, return phone calls promptly and do not charge excessive fees for every paperclip and stamp used. There are also many who do not. However, the same could be said for any other profession. However, there is a valid reason that there are thousands of lawyer jokes. The public's perception of attorneys is certainly not a favorable one. I hope this will change. We will always need attorneys for complex legal issues that the public is unable to perform on their own. Hopefully, a day will come when the legal profession takes an honest look at itself and makes a real commitment to improving for the benefit of the public.